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Phoenix-Firestorm Public Beta

PLEASE READ BEFORE DOWNLOADING!

Yesterday, November 13th, Linden Lab rolled out a server update to the Second Life grid that contained some improved group handling code for large groups. Unfortunately, however, at the time of this writing, and to the best of our knowledge, only the current LL Beta Viewer has the necessary code released for compatibility with this update. As a result, moderators of large groups with more than 10,000 users are unable to load the group member list. This leaves users unable to manage group memberships on anything other than the Linden Beta. LL has also released some new notifications to the server that some old versions of Firestorm and all versions of Phoenix will not recognize. This leads to error messages that say, “Your version of viewer name does not know how to display the alert message it just received.”

In order to accommodate the users who need to manage their large groups, we have decided to rush what we have done so far, along with the group loading code, into a public Beta for you. This also gives those of you who like cutting edge code a chance to toy with our latest and report problems to us on our JIRA

NOTE:
- This is NOT an official release, but we will provide support for it.
- This has NOT been thoroughly tested by our Quality Assurance team.
- We can NOT make any promises regarding how stable or bug-free it is.
- This DOES have some really cool new stuff in it!

USE IT IF:
- You need to manage large groups inworld.
- You’re tired of seeing unknown alert messages in Phoenix.
- You’re feeling brave, you live on the cutting edge and you want to get an early look at what’s coming in December’s Official Release.

You can download the beta from
 http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/firestorm_beta_4.3.0.30936_change_log

If you can wait, we have a scheduled Official Release around the beginning of December that we expect will be fantastic.

Phoenix users:

Our developers and support staff have been extremely busy trying to balance their real working and personal lives while continuing their volunteer efforts to develop SL’s most popular viewer for you. Unfortunately, most of us cannot easily compile Phoenix anymore because of missing/expired libraries like Fmod, compiler changes we’ve had to make for Firestorm, OS upgrades (Win8), etc. To update Phoenix to current LL code now would be a very, very big task and, because we are already at our limit of what we can do, there are no plans to update Phoenix Viewer to support this new group code or handle the new notification system at this time. We are, after all, only human.

We highly recommend Phoenix users give Firestorm a chance — or a second one, as the case may be. Either that or consider looking for an alternative V1-based viewer. Firestorm has a very good Phoenix-like interface mode now, and most Phoenix users who have given Firestorm a dedicated 3-5 day chance now proudly prefer it over Phoenix. Firestorm also has a significant lead over Phoenix in both minutes and unique users. It is clear that Firestorm is the viewer that will stand the test of time, where Phoenix will not.

In the meantime, Phoenix is still usable in SL, provided you don’t need to manage large groups and don’t mind putting up with error messages.

I hope you understand our current dilemma regarding Phoenix, and though we have not made a solid decision yet as to whether or not we will update it again in the future, it is not looking likely at the moment. Please understand that sooner or later… one way or another, Phoenix will expire.

Sincerely,

Jessica Lyon
Project Manager
The Phoenix Firestorm Project, Inc.

  • And massive shitdtorm about cutting phoenix or issues with the viewr in 3..2…1…

    (go to the Phoenix firestorm support group in world if you have viewer problems)

    Serith

    November 15, 2012

  • I notice you have this big section about “Phoenix users” and are askign phoenix users to use Firestorm.. and claim “Firestorm has a very good Phoenix-like interface mode now”

    however with the phoenix mode.. I really wonder.. when was the last time any of you tried using phoenix? As far as I always known, even on a clean install with no settings saved, phoenix by default is on a dark theme.. I have never seen the blue theme you have going on, but understand it’s the original v1 (not default phoenix) theme as seen on CoolVL.

    As as long as I been using phoenix (since may 2011 when I joined SL), it’s always been the dark theme with the orange buttons.

    Like this:

    http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m376/sorrowdemonica/Untitled-1_zpsf5184202.jpg

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • It feels to me like your devs SINCERELY do not want to support Phoenix, but at the same time your team does not want to LET GO of the people who use phoenix either. This spirit I’m talking about is demonstrated very clearly in your post. While you tell Phoenix users that it’s the end of the line for Phoenix, you also only -and illogically- present only firestorm as an alternative. But this ignores the fact that a lot of people have tried firestorm and have problems with it.

    In my mind, it would help YOU a lot if you “blessed” Singularity and/or “Cool VL Viewer” in a blog post, saying something along the lines of “for those of you who prefer the V1 interface, the PhoenixFirestorm team recommends using the ‘Phoenix’ theme presented with Firestorm, and for those of you whose computers have issues with Firestorm for whatever reason switch to one of the two currently-maintained v1 viewers: (a link)Singularity Viewer(/a) or (a link)Cool VL Viewer(/a).” That would serve to both highlight your currently supported offering, and ACTIVELY encourage those people who still use Phoenix to use one of the v1 viewers that are actually being maintained.

    At this point, it feels like you don’t want to support those users, but you don’t want them going to another camp, either. That’s foolish and that doesn’t help you, and it doesn’t help them. Yes, people would still complain, and you’d probably get a couple of “what about imprudence” comments –but still and all, I think that the benefits of blessing the *currently supported* V1 viewers outweighs the negatives.

    … and I think it’s way past time that your team did so.

    Han Held

    November 15, 2012

  • I understand that focusing to develop only the latest software is sensible.
    I don’t understand that…like Raven said “Firestorm has a very good Phoenix-like interface mode now” this will be cure to us, who have older hardware in the desk/lap tops.

    Interface cannot fix that problem, that present Firestorm is a energy/power hogging monster to us, who have less power effective computers.

    My laptop hardware is: FS AMILO Pi 2530, Core2 T7100@1.80GHz, 2046MB RAM, Ati Radeon X2300 HD 128MB

    With latest Phoenix using minimum settings on graphics, I have 5-10fps, dd40 meters and I can move inworld.

    With latest Firestorm same minimal settings I am like fly/bug in the glue paper and cannot move even minimum dd.

    Hood can be polished shiny (interface in Firestorm) but that matters what is under the hood and now it is way too heavy to me and Lord only knows how many others.

    When v1 based viewers expire, I believe that on same time expire quite many users too from sl because users economy don’t give up to buy a new hardware.

    I lift my thumb up to Han Held post and sorry my poor english.

    JErik

    November 15, 2012

  • I simply can’t afford a better computer at this time that will support Firestorm and the like. If those will be my only options soon, I guess me and my alts (and our money that we spend in SL) will be off to CloudParty or something less intensive on my computer.

    briannanitely

    December 15, 2012

  • @briannanitely

    That is a concern or complaint that should be directed to Linden Labs, the owners and creators of Second Life.. not the Firestorm team.

    Linden Labs is pretty much the company who sets the PC requirements when it comes to future development.

    Raven

    December 16, 2012

  • Jessica I wonder if you read these comments as I keep saying one of the main reasons I not using Firestorm and that is Phoenix runs faster.
    If Phoenix dies I will go over to one of the alternatives mentioned that is supported by its team.

    June

    November 15, 2012

  • I also wanted to add my view on Firestorm from an owner’s perspective. I am an Owner and the General Manager of the top trafficking Furry club on the grid, I think it’s amazing you have managed to mod the Firestorm UI to match phoenix however the one major issue that keeps me using Phoenix instead of Firestorm is primarily the webbased search.

    It’s Slow and “too big”.

    Where as Phoenix’s search is viewer based, brings up results in an instant, they are well organized and show more results per page (25 or so).

    while on the other hand LL’s webbased search, each page has to load, the information is cluttered/separated, you have to click on the search results to load another page to get the info you want (especially profiles, having to click two links to bring it up), and you can only see ~4-5 results at once.

    As a casual SL user, this may be fine.. as the average user i’d imagine rarely ever searches up someone’s name or places/traffic.. however from a business and club owner’s standpoint.. it’s one of the worse interfaces ever..

    On a day to day basis, I am constantly looking up profiles, everything from staff to look them up to message them or everyday, doing a search of the Club’s ranking for the day, and other various searches.. Day to Day I do ~10 searches. however some days, such as when I’ll need to mass message our staff, I have to bring up their profiles one by one to be able to click the “Instant Message” button/link, takes an eternity on Firestorm, especially my club which has 100 employees! Also soesn’t help that the profiles are Web Based and have to load..

    Even if you check the option to show the non-webbased v1 viewer type profiles, they may appear as the V1 type profiles, however it’s obvious it’s pulling the data from the same slow webbased database(?), as it too takes too long to load a profile in comparison to Phoenix.

    I am not advocating to get rid of the webbased search, as I understand that at anytime LL can break the older search, however instead, It would be amazing if there was an option in preferences to choose between the V1 type viewer based search (like phoenix’s) and the current V2/V3 Web Search.

    If Firestorm had this, I personally would be one more step in making Firestorm my primary viewer over Phoenix.

    That and a 2nd issue I notice which I’ll mention in another comment.

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • P.S. about the above comment regarding search, just checkout this picture to see just how little results you get in Firestorm’s search compared to Phoenix, in addition, forced to click into a new window (load) for each one to bring up full place info, like phoenix which shows all the information you need on the right along with a nice picture :)

    http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m376/sorrowdemonica/Search_zpsbbca2ab6.jpg

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • @ Michael

    As I mentioned, we have over 100 employees on staff. and yes we have a group, but on Firestorm when you “double click” on a user’s name.. it open’s their profile, however on firestorm, those profiles can take up to a minute to populate and for the IM button to not be greyed out. This is something that did not happen on Phoenix. The IM Button is instantly available even if the profile didn’t finish loading in the 2 seconds you had it open.

    However i believe with the new Firestorm version and the integration of the new Legacy Search, it’s almost getting there.. unfortunately there’s still an issue with redundant button to click which there’s a JIRA about, but by next version the Legacy Search may be exactly as phoenix and just as quick to load/populate fields as it is with the current version.

    Lastly, no way in hell would I “Friend” over 100 people on my account or an Alt. also i am sure there’d be plenty of staff who wouldn’t want to friend me or end up removing me as friend after a month or two just during friend list cleanup, so that would = someone not getting a vital mass message/inventory transger or something which required me to IM each one, one by one to verify a message and item was sent (usually amended rules).

    Anyways, everything you stated solves any of the issues I had with the previous Firestorm versions. I been using SL for quite a long time, Running SL’s #1 top ranking fur club on the grid for over a year and an additional 1/2 year of running another club. in addition to using Firestorm since it’s initial V2 beta forms, so I am fully aware of solutions, workarounds, and the capabilities of Firestorm and what I stated in my original post was based on experience and reality. But this post is 1/2 outdated now as the new Firestorm release remedied the slow profile load times for the most part..

    Raven

    December 4, 2012

  • I think people are missing a VERY key point.. Some of the needed libraries for phoenix compilation come from third parties and those companies do not provide them anymore. You are also not supposed to redistribute them. Which means when a phoenix dev has a drive crash or upgrades their machine most likely there will be one less phoenix dev. So no conspiracy or anything, simply the facts.

    As to recommending a V1 viewer made by someone else everyone has different needs. The moment you make a statement that one is better than the others suddenly you have a geek war on the order of kirk v picard. I have heard good things about catznip as a v1 viewer but it is not out yet for my mac. I would suggest anyone looking to switch to take a look at the third party viewer directory for ideas.

    Kara

    November 15, 2012

  • All it really takes is one die hard Phoenix/V1 fan with coding/program ability to keep Phoenix updated :)

    Henri of CoolVL is a great example.. All by himself, he keeps V1 based CoolVL up to date with all the latest Dev & V3 Patches, Upgrades, bug fixes and more.

    CoolVL at times is so upgraded and up to the date in the latest features that at times it surpasses the official Linden Labs viewer in features, bug fixes, including a lot of original new coding and options Also as a bonus, it is super duper stable.

    Unfortunately it uses the snowglobe official v1 type UI (older than phoenix’s UI), so it isn’t as nice of an interface as Phoenix in my opinion.

    P.S. Henri offers the source coding for CoolVL free to other developers, the Last Phoenix update used some/a lot of Henri’s progress, I don’t see a reason why Phoenix just doesn’t join forces with Henri and utilize each other..

    If the Phoenix Team has done it before.. there’s no reason why they can’t do it again… and again… and again with each update’s source code Henri releases, and if they can’t do it as often as Henri does (each two weeks) at least just once every 1-2 months.. just to keep up to date with major changes, development, and big fixes. even if the update is using 1-2 month old material.

    Better to have 1-2 month old patches and features than stuck with no updates at all.

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • Anyways, the 2nd issue I have with Firestorm over phoenix..

    I am not sure if this is just internet based or graphics based.. however I have Verizon Fios 35up/35down service, an Alienware lappy with Nvidia GT335, 8 gigs of DDR3 and a Solid State drive..

    however when I teleport anywhere on Firestorm.. or just log in.. especially to my club where there can be 30-40+ people at any given time.. I am staring at a room full of grey people also walls of textures partially loaded.. and will remain like this for minutes at times..

    On the otherhand, i can log out right there on the spot (to rule out server performance).. fire up Phoneix Viewer, and log in and within seconds.. everyone is loaded, textures are crisp and loaded fully, etc.

    Firestorm is very inefficient at loading graphics and has a lot of cases of Grey people and Pixelized textures.

    Phoenix does not suffer from this.

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • It’d be nice if I didn’t need to upgrade my graphics card to run firestorm, but I do. My graphics card can’t handle firestorm, so I guess I am screwed. All the money I have invested in SL, over the last 4 years as a premium account holder, and you can’t even give me a decent viewer I can use, without pouring more money I don’t have into my computer. Thanks phoenix/firestorm.

    Caoilte

    November 15, 2012

  • As a Phoenix supporter :P there’s nothing stopping you from using Phoenix still. you still have all the same features you did 1,2,3,& 4 years ago and don’t need to upgrade your PC.

    However if you want to access the new features (i.e. mesh or whatever else) need a new pc. however that is not the Phoenix Team’s doing, that’s LL and much needed progress.

    Also if there was no phoenix, there’s still the other v1 alternatives such as the highly updated CoolVL which out performs Phoenix, particularly on older PCs (not as great interface as Phoenix in my opinion).

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • @raven “All it really takes is one die hard Phoenix/V1 fan with coding/program ability to keep Phoenix updated :)”

    No.

    It also takes proprietary libraries (produced by third parties) that simply do not exist anymore. If you were a V1 developer before you MIGHT have those libraries but someone new would not. If someone gives them a bootleg copy it is breaking the law.

    Kara

    November 15, 2012

  • Henri of CoolVl appears to be doing a great job, and I am sure there’s individuals with whose libraries you speak of oh the Phoenix Team.. but also if you’re basing your program off the Source Code Henri is giving away and just use that to keep Phoenix updated.. no license is needed as Henri is providing all the code you need to build a complete new viewer from scratch even with all the latest updates and tidbits from even the latest v3 developments :D!

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • even LL has this bit of information on their information regarding compiling a viewer “alternative open source libraries are also provided for developers who prefer or are not licensed to use the proprietary libraries”

    Open Source will always be around and those are always free to distribute/share “bootleg copies” of without breaking any law.

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • P.S. there’s always developers cross country lines.. i.e. something licensed in the U.S. that would break U.S. law to share with another U.S. citizen may have zero jurisdiction and violate no law in European countries as they aren’t copyrighted/licensed in Europe and vice versa, and with SL being a globally used app and developers all over the world, some may benefit from this loophole as well.

    Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • @raven

    What part of “nonredistributable library” do you have trouble parsing? If someone (including Henri) distributes the library they are breaking the law whether it is someone they work with or not. Full stop. Do not pass go, go directly to jail. Even if you were to ignore the redistribution part some of the V1 code relies on older versions of the libraries (and not the newer ones) that will eventually be incompatible with the developer’s current operating system.

    What is open source is the source code for the viewer itself but to fully compile it you need the libraries. Some can be skipped (sound or good graphics for example) but the resultant binary will not have that feature.

    Anyone who has used multiple viewers will tell you there are things they like about the V1 interface. That is not even a question.

    I do have to ask. How much did you pay for your copy of phoenix?

    Kara

    November 15, 2012

  • @ June: I do read these comments, I do care about our users and it is folks who have lower end systems that I feel for the most as they are the ones who will suffer most by not being able to keep up with technological progress from LL. Tech cannot sit still, it must progress or it will wither away. Computer systems have to be able to keep up. Keeping Phoenix up to date means keeping it up to date with the same tech that users on low end systems cannot run now on Firestorm or other V3’s. Does that make sense? That much of it is out of our hands.

    @ Han: Yes, I do want to keep our users because I do care about them, genuinely, and supporting phoenix has become next to impossible for us now. Please note the second sentence in this blog post paragraph “We highly recommend Phoenix users give Firestorm a chance — or a second one, as the case may be. Either that or consider looking for an alternative V1-based viewer.” I have stated there that there are alternatives but if I were to start naming one or two viewers then I have all the others screaming why I didn’t name them as well. I don’t want to open that can of worms, there are alternatives beyond Firestorm and I stated so. I just didn’t name them, do they really need to be named after all? Who doesn’t already know about singularity, the grids 5th most popular viewer, or Cool VL? I don’t think I really need to name them, word gets around pretty quick.

    @ Jerik: I stated it has a very good phoenix-like interface. Emphasis on the word ‘like’. Unfortunately making an interface exactly as that of phoenix is not possible within our capabilities at this time. As for performance; we are aware firestorm doesn’t perform as fast for some users but interestingly it performs much faster than phoenix for others. This is a fact that seems to be related to users hardware specifications. Unfortunately we cannot upgrade our users computers for them and we can’t keep up to date with new features AND develop a viewer that doesn’t have those features for users of older systems.

    @ Raven: We are very well aware of the inadequacies of web search, and none of us are happy with it either. We have a surprise feature coming in the official release of Firestorm in December… I link you to this jira and point out that it is marked in progress ;). http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-6310

    Regarding what Kara has been trying to tell you folks here. The viewer is compiled with it’s own core code but also needs to include third party code we do not own and cannot distribute, legally. Without the third party libraries the viewer cannot be compiled correctly, in some cases not at all. I’ll direct you to the following master Jira linked to all the jira’s from users who can no longer compile Phoenix because of these now missing libraries. http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/PHOE-4327 . Phoenix has to be compiled under Microsoft Visual studio 2005 or 2008. This is a massive program, 6 gig in size if I remember correctly. Firestorm has to be compiled under Microsoft Visual Studio 2010. Many of our developers including myself have lost 2005/08 during hard drive or OS upgrades and now only have 2010. Meaning we can only compile Firestorm. Phoenix also cannot be compiled under Windows 8 and several of our developers have upgraded to that. In many cases phoenix can’t even run under windows 8, again.. something we cannot fix easily. So when I say it’s getting next to impossible to keep Phoenix alive I really am telling the truth. It’s gone beyond the boundaries of being sensible. Either we can try to keep phoe alive, and even with our best efforts it will still fall behind dramatically, or we can work on a viewer which can be kept up to date more reasonably. Our decision to develop Firestorm over Phoenix is one of logic and common sense, not emotion. It is one based on what we are capable of doing and what makes most developmental sense.

    Jessica Lyon

    November 15, 2012

  • I think mos of you who have commented have given jessica lyons a really hard time for what really is a very unjustified reason.

    She and all her team give up all their spare time to make these viewers for us the sl public to use free of charge.

    Not only that, but also give free support, something LL are totally useless at.

    LL keep changing the goal posts, it is not like Jessica and her team get a few months notice to implement new stuff, LL just stick it in their beta viewer and then tell her about it.

    You should all consider yourselves darned lucky Jessica and her team maintain the viewers like they have already.

    LL have been trying to force out V1 for a long time now, and it only right that Jessica and her team focus on the viewer that is going to be most compatible, reliable, and least amount of work to maintain it to a very high standard.

    There is no such thing as the perfect tool, or the perfect program, you can have 20 identical computers, running identical software and apps, and not 1 of them will work 100% exactly like the other, so why should an sl viewer.

    So if ya want the latest tech, go with firestorm, if phoenix still works, use phoenix, when it breaks, either upgrade or try something else.

    Not as if any of you are paying a subscription each month to use the software, so stop your whining.

    I say, yes there will always be problems, but thank you kindly Jessica and your team, for all your hard work for us the sl community, some of us do appreciate it deeply.

    Raven

    The Raven

    November 15, 2012

  • I do believe that the Firestorm developers welcome bug reports and suggestions on their JIRA (where they belong). Constructive criticism will be heard, too, no doubt.

    But I think that’s it. Fine by me. I do not think inappropriate demands and flaming are helpful.

    The residents of Second Life are being offered a fine viewer here. For free, mind you! Everybody may choose to gratefully accept that offer — or to decline it as inappropriate what with one’s specific needs and use another Third Party Viewer. Or maybe even the official Second Life Viewer.

    End of story.

    Raymond Martinek

    November 15, 2012

  • Speaking purely as a user, throughout my entire second life I have tested as many viewers as I could lay my hands on, checking features and performance. Had a viewer other than Emerald, Phoenix or Firestorm been better, I would be using it. But in my personal opinion there is none better. The choice is always yours to make regarding what viewer you use.

    You must also be logical and accept that a newer viewer that does more (mesh, pathfinding, multiple baked layers) is going to demand more from your computer than older versions. To expect software development to stall because your computer isn’t capable is like asking governments to keep the minimum speed limit down just so you can put your horseless carriage on the expressway.

    I know full well that economic times are tough, believe me I know first hand (out). But I managed to save my pennies over the years and I was able to retire my 2005-ish computer and buy a nice 2011 computer. And if I can do it, I know you could have.

    The best thing you can do is to make sure you’re using the best – not necessarily the latest – drivers for your graphics card, that you regularly keep the interior clean of dust, and that you not try to do more than your computer is capable of doing. And save up your money to buy something newer. Get opinions from Second Life users and not gamers, and definitely not from sales geeks who don’t know what Second Life is, about buying your next computer.

    Mister Acacia

    November 15, 2012

  • And yes, http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/file_a_jira has an excellent step-by-step process to help you create a New Feature, Improvement, Bug Report or Support request. We want to hear of the problems you are having so we can either show you how to resolve it yourself, or fix the viewer so it doesn’t happen in the future. If you want a feature, let us know in the jira, and give us time to implement it. If you can help by providing a patch, or simply being another set of eyes to see where a problem might be, the team will be very grateful. Nothing is too insignificant (e.g., http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-8136 :) ).

    Tell us what you want in your viewer. If you can help implement it, we’d love to see your code. No idea is rejected unless we simply can’t do it (licensing issues, outside the scope of a viewer, etc.). Help us make Firestorm what YOU want to use.

    Mister Acacia

    November 15, 2012

  • Hi folks… can you allow or Firestorm as branched for the new LL and Havok facilities to co-exist on the same computer as the separate releases for OpenSim in future by using different default installation directories and a different desktop shortcut name? That will help users not familiar with changing these things where we point people at using Firestorm for OpenSim grid access.

    Austin Tate

    November 15, 2012

  • To limit the cost of computer upgrades, because upgrading is inevitable, I stick to owning a desktop for SL and upgrade one critical component every Christmas (my Christmas present to myself). Considering that means CPU/mobo, graphics card, & RAM it takes 3 years for me to rebuild my computer. My HDD and PSU get replaced as they fail. This has allowed me to spend considerably less at any one time than it would have cost to buy a whole new computer all at once. My computer is always able to run SL on at least “high” graphics settings and give me great FPS everywhere I go in SL. You have to plan ahead to stay in the game.

    Cincia

    November 15, 2012

  • Thanks Jessica very glad to hear your reading, thank you. :-)
    This Beta does seem a bit faster than the Firestorm released, yes I’m fair I have tried it today.
    The thing I not like that isn’t like the Phoenix is the little notices and IMs that are in the top right hand corner.
    I do appreciate the work that is done by you and team.

    June

    November 15, 2012

  • I agree too as well about those top right corner notifications.. there should be a setting in preferences and should be disabled by default for the phoenix mode. I hate how i have to click them off for each notice (even after pressing OK on the Notice window), and have IM/chat stuff popping up there, even if I am actively talking in the Chat with the person.

    Useful if you use the standard v3 view and use window popups for chat, that’s when having a handy dandy area where all the chat icon for each chat in the upper right corner is useful. As for phoenix, this is a useless feature as the Chat window is integrated and you have handy dandy chat tabs in the main chat window for each conversation which also flash when a new IM is received.

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • and so 75% of my prediction has already occurred, Phoenix has just been laid to rest, and Firestorm is already sick … hmmm maybe should not have split up so much the forces. In Germany there is a saying: “You can not dance at two weddings at the same time.”

    enjoy the now frantic race to catch up ^^

    12345

    November 16, 2012

  • Since when is firestorm ‘sick’?

    Kara

    November 16, 2012

  • isnt Firestorm. just LL’s v2/v3 compared to V1.. sure it has all new features and other goodies.. but ignoring the features and new goodies, getting to the core of the two versions, v1 vs v2/v3, or phoenix vs firestorm, it’s obvious LL’s viewer and firestorm are affected by some serious afflictions. two of them being mentioned above, such as web based searches, graphic/texture loading lag, and other various issues.

    at least that’s my opinion :O

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • Firestorm will be sick when the user and usage numbers drop dramatically. Stating it were presently is just idle talk. Or trolling, for that matter.

    Raymond Martinek

    November 16, 2012

  • Fs sick.??? what a joke !!!!

    bianca

    November 16, 2012

  • I have tried Firestorm several times and it is just extremely laggy on my computer. I get better results with LL official viewer. I think you will find alot of Phoenix users are the same as me.

    namssab1nad piers

    November 16, 2012

  • Maybe it is simply just be but I find firestorm unusable. my own avatar doesnt display half of the time. and big chunks of the world remain unloaded because of that i have remained with Phoenix. (using a 64-bit machine) am wondering if it is my machine, orthe viewer?

    Chris Borrett

    November 16, 2012

  • a lot of people have tried firestorm and have problems with it.
    How much is a lot, compared to the amount of people that successfully run Firestorm Viewer ?

    Recently Linden Lab’s statistics proved Firestorm to be the most popular (most used) viewer in Second Life with the lowest crash-rate ever.

    How can this be the case, if so many people have problems running Firestorm ?

    I know Firestorm is not perfect but it’s certainly far from unusable.

    PixelProphet

    November 16, 2012

  • Most Popular does not always mean better.

    Let’s use an analogy..

    Phoenix = Windows XP, stable, performs great, Solid all around, works flawlessly for anyone who uses it.. It may be old and outdated, but you cannot deny that it was flawless OS.

    Firestorm = Windows Vista.. extremely buggy, unstable, and/or a ton of compatibility issues for a lot of users. It may look really nice and loaded with new features, but cannot deny that it was a lousy slow OS for a lot of users.

    Firestorm needs to make the jump to the next level of development and iron out it’s kinks and compatibility issues and features to win over the Phoenix users… kinda like how Windows 7 won over the Windows XP users.

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • Fs is more stable than any other viewer and offers so much good points,that any other just can’t.Its the truth an dits a fact,that PH is dying and ppls must start to use FS.Its so easy and simple.

    bianca

    November 16, 2012

  • I was losing 10-20FPS in Firestorm.

    What was the problem, my HAIR. Yes, it sounds crazy, but just removing my hair would give me a lot of FPS.

    I even opened a JIRA http://jira.phoenixviewer.com/browse/FIRE-7909.

    I ended up buying another hair and now I get much better FPS. Try it out if you are having problems with framerate.

    Thanks to the firestorm team for all their hard work.

    Travis Reston

    November 16, 2012

  • I am trying the new beta and lots of items are red.
    How can I improve rezzing?

    Gedenspire

    November 16, 2012

  • Crash reports sent to our server are sent to our server for us to investigate. Not to LL. The crash reporting system that LL uses is built into the viewer and goes unnoticed to the user. When the viewer crashes it stores a crash state in settings. When the viewer is relaunched and connects to SL again it reports to the LL server that it crashed.

    LL crash statistics are based on this, and is entirely separate from crash reports. It also cannot be opted out by the user. Phoenix and Firestorm both send crash stats to the LL server 100% reliably so LL’s crash stats are accurate.

    As per this weeks statistics, Firestorm 4.2.2 has a 8.72% crash rate. This means out of ALL login sessions, 8.72% ended in a crash. Phoenix 1.6.1 is at 12.06%.

    As for usage, well.. here’s a graph. http://imgur.com/Oo51X

    Jessica Lyon

    November 16, 2012

  • Graphs :D! I love graphs :D!

    but good to know the reports are made using LL’s awesome sneaky methods :D!

    and wow, I didn’t expect so many users to still be using Phoenix, Well in logged minutes.. I’d imagined a rebellious small cult fanbase less than 20% of all users combined phoenix and firestorm users.. but 42% is a shock to me :D!

    What is that in # of users between the two, if you know :O?

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • Well that graph only indicates the comparison between Phoenix and Firestorm users and doesn’t include any other. So the % between then is purely between the two viewers and is no indication to how many folks on the grid use them compared to all viewers.

    Jessica Lyon

    November 16, 2012

  • Distinct user count is unfortunately not very accurate since one user can use phoenix one day, firestorm the next, and another viewer the third day and then be counted 3 times, once on each viewer. So generally we go by usage minutes instead as that is the most accurate metric.

    Also, if I gave you distinct usage numbers one could theoretically could then work out how many users use Phoenix and Firestorm compared to all other viewers. And LL wouldn’t like that, lol. That’s why I’ve only provided usage minutes between Ph and FS.

    Jessica Lyon

    November 16, 2012

  • When I joined SL 3 years ago, I was on SL V1 then Emerald Viewer was released. I went with Emerald and was stuck on that one viewer till the end of it. Phoenix rose and I tried it and stuck with it since it was very similar to Emerald Viewer. I still kept V1 till it updated to V2 and now it is V3. I have had V3 for a backup viewer then Firestorm came out. I tried Firestorm and I was bombarded by confusion on Firestorm. DID NOT like it at all and uninstalled it immediatly. I admit it was a great attempt at the hybrid viewer but no bueno on it for me so I’m sticking with Phoenix till the day it dies like I did with Emerald. I now currently use other than Pheonix and V3, I use Niran’s Viewer which is based on V3/some of Phoenix coding. Since it is more modifyable than Firestorm from what I heard, I modded my Niran’s into Phoenix’s interface so if I switch back to Phoenix or V3 from Niran’s, I’m not confused or bombarded like in Firestorm. Jessica Lyon, I appreciate you and your teams all your hard earned work from the beginning till present time. Keep up the awesome work though this cat will always remain a huge fan of Phoenix! VIVA LA KATNIP RESISTANCE TO PHOENIX! \o/

    Noctis KittyMel Ivercourt

    November 16, 2012

  • I am a hardcore Phoenix User and Firestorm hater (just check out my many comments above).

    However reading your comment here.. It is obvious your view on Firestorm is seriously outdated… You really need to download any Firestorm version within the past 5 releases because when you load it up, you can set the Log In mode to Phoenix Mode.. and only three words can describe what you will see:

    Exactly Like Phoenix.

    Just check out this screenshot for proof:

    http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m376/sorrowdemonica/Untitled-1_zpsd4a090f4.jpg

    Exact same thing as phoenix, just not the grey and orange theme (option for the dark theme apparently coming maybe next update).

    Also Firestorm’s many choices of UIs (Firestorm, V3, Phoenix, Hybrid, etc) are fully modifiable, can rearrange buttons, enable or disable menus, change the layout, hide or show the buttons, etc.

    Just check out my Modified default V3 Layout:

    http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m376/sorrowdemonica/Untitled-1_zps9da8374f.jpg

    I customized it so that it’s a mix of Phoenix and V3.

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • Honestly, some of you really need to stop moaning like children, especially when having something like a Ati Radeon X2300 HD 128MB, am sorry but its about time you acknowledge that your laptop is past its best (and thats putting it politely) SL is pretty heavy on graphics card and its an area that you shouldnt really penny pinch on, its about time that we raise the minimum hardware requirements for SL to a decent level.

    PJ

    November 16, 2012

  • that’s nothing.. you should try using SL on a laptop (even 2012 models) that only has an integrated Intel HD Graphics card.

    Attempting to dare use Firestorm on Intel graphics is virtually unplayable.. 0-2 fps on low.. Phoenix on the otherhand is playable at a decent 6-8 fps, at least there’s motion…

    Not even my Alienware Laptop with it’s overclocked Intel i7, OCZ Vertex II Solid State Drive, 8GB Kingston Hyper-X DDR3 cannot do Firestorm when I set it to use it’s Intel graphics card instead of the GT335m Nvidia card.

    there are quite a few individuals who visit my club that are stuck with budget Desktop PCs, Macs, or laptop with only the Integrated Intel Graphics.

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • @raven
    “Attempting to dare use Firestorm on Intel graphics is virtually unplayable … there are quite a few individuals who visit my club that are stuck with budget Desktop PCs, Macs, or laptop with only the Integrated Intel Graphics.”

    They need to upgrade their machines. Seriously. That is like only having 512 Mb or ram in your machine then complaining everything is too slow. It is your own fault and people have told you how to fix it.

    Read the second life requirements on secondlife.com sometime … intel integrated graphics are not supported, just as a wireless network is not. Laptops are iffy as often they use both integrated graphics and low-power components.

    Do some people get them to work anyway? Yes, but not everyone does. Someone may be in the boonies and have a clear signal while someone else may be in an area with a cluttered electromagnetic spectrum. It is much easier to take the lowest common denominator and not support things when someone goes against the recommendations than to teach a computer science course to everyone who asks ‘will this work on my machine’. Yes, I have gone against people saying that with other programs but I knew that it was a buyer beware situation.

    Kara

    November 16, 2012

  • @ Kara

    Unfortunately, not everyone has flexible (or parents) income to spend on performance Laptops..

    The reality is, majority of under $1,200 laptops only have Intel integrated graphics and majority of under $600 desktops only have Intel integrated graphics.

    Plus if you own one of those under $1200 laptops.. unfortunately those aren’t upgradable. Then when it comes to Macbooks, unless you are willing to drop up to 2Gs for a Macbook Pro, most likely Intel will be your only option on the majority of models.

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • @Kara

    P.S. “That is like only having 512 Mb or ram in your machine then complaining everything is too slow. It is your own fault and people have told you how to fix it.”

    From a owner of a custom aftermarket modded Alienware Laptop, overclocked Intel i7 cpu, Nvidia GT335, OCZ Vertex II Solid State Drive, 8GB Kingston Hyper-X DDR3, and a Killer™ Brand E2200 Gaming Performance Network Card connected to Verizon Fios 35mbps up/35mbps down fiber optic connection.. All I can tell you is, Firestorm is still slower than Phoenix.

    The issues still apply as I mentioned in earlier comments above.. Textures load slower on Firestorm, longer periods of Grey people/objects followed by pixelized textures, or in alot of instances, textures stop loading mid-way through and are stuck pixelized or blurry that note even tex-refresh can fix.

    I can log in to my club with 40+ individuals present and on firestorm it will take a good solid 20-30+ seconds for everyone and everything to render fully with a few individuals not loaded at all or textures that stopped loading as I mentioned above, at times too, a few people are just a floating default brown partial SL head (forced to right click them and choose tex refresh).

    Phoenix on the otherhand can have the whole club and all of it’s occupants loaded in 10-15 seconds flat with nothing missing and every texture fully loaded completely.

    Besides the few texture/sculpt/mesh loading performance quarks, the horrid Firestorm/v3 webbased search is still inexcusable. Even Jessica Lyon commented above with this:

    “We are very well aware of the inadequacies of web search, and none of us are happy with it either.”

    So yeah, don’t attempt to blame people’s computers for the issues with Firestorm. When there’s individuals with high performing pcs who notice the difference, like me.

    Anyways, The fact that Phoenix and particularly CoolVL which is at times updated in more core features than Firestorm and even ahead of Linden Lab’s Official Release Viewer (sometimes even ahead of the Beta Linden Labs Viewer updates).. the fact that CoolVL can continue to run Slow and Old PCs just fine even with those Intel integrated graphics and provide higher framerate than even Phoenix, should be testament enough against all you stated.

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • @raven If Cool VL is the better viewer for you then go use it. Or are you just being a troll?

    Kara

    November 16, 2012

  • @Kara

    if you actually bother to read the comments, you’d know Phoenix is my preferred viewer. CoolVL i only mentioned because it’s a v1 viewer as well like Phoenix, yet it is one of the most up date updated viewers of SL and is able to provide a great user experience performance wise for Older and Slower PCs.

    However in another comment above, i mentioned I do not like CoolVL’s original snowglobe (LL’s v1) style UI, it’s a bad layout.

    So yeah, I am a Phoenix and Firestorm supporter/user.

    Just because I comment I like and use Phoenix more does not mean I am a troll, instead I am explaining some flaws of Firestorm (fixable flaws), which I mentioned in other comments, if corrected, will probably help scoop up a whole lot more Phoenix users full time (including myself).

    Raven

    November 16, 2012

  • @raven Nobody is removing Phoenix from your machine. I have ran into the same thing with hardware, operating systems, and second life clients in the past — the developer discontinues the project. Yes, for those times I was upset as LL cut off a machine right after saying they would no longer support it but the difference is YOU ARE NOT PAYING THE FIRESTORM/PHOENIX DEVS TO WRITE PHOENIX FOR YOU AND I AM A PAYING LL CUSTOMER.

    I am a programmer so there are lots of programs I have been paid to work on when I was at one place or another. Strangely, nobody has ever called me a few weeks later and complained I stopped developing their software. You do not even rate at the level on an ex-boss unless you were sending anonymous paychecks to the whole dev team or something.

    Kara

    November 17, 2012

  • Are you even reading the comments i post or just looking at the first sentence and fabricating your own illusions for the rest o.O?

    the bit about nobody is removing phoenix from my machine isn’t really a concern of mine as Firestorm works fine for me. but that’s besides the point.

    Just because end users give feedback regardless good or bad, does not equal a bad thing.

    If you were a programer, you’d understand that.. if you gave your end users a program with issues or told them.. tough shit, you’re on your own, you’d lose customers and build a bad rep.

    The fact that the Phoenix Team allows users to post comments, also takes time to reply to them is great customer service and builds them a great rep, even amongst the individuals with issues. Then when they say they will do their best to look into the issues or work on a workaround to accommodate more users that’s just boss.. earns then many thanks, respect, and of course, more users switching over which seems to be a primary goal of the Phoenix Team.

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

  • I have a good PC, gaming laptop about a year old. I tried Firestorm for a couple of months but I never could really love it. Here’s why:

    -Takes FOREVER to log in! 3x as long as a v1 based viewer. When I crash at an important moment that time can be crucial.
    -No old search. I use both, but using web search for people sucks. It doesn’t find them half the time.
    -Top menus arranged differently than Phoenix. I got used to them eventually but there are more mouse clicks to get to some things I use a lot. Annoying.

    Change these things and you may get me back. Otherwise I will stick to my new viewer choice, Singularity. The claim that v1 viewers can’t be updated is BS… Singularity has multiple layers and everything else that is missing from Phoenix. You just don’t want to update! Why not take Singularity’s code and add the Phoenix features back in. It wouldn’t be identical but it would be better than the big NOTHING that Phoenix users are getting right now.

    Ayesha Lytton

    November 16, 2012

  • I have a good PC, gaming laptop about a year old. I tried Firestorm for a couple of months but I never could really love it. Here’s why:

    -Takes FOREVER to log in! 3x as long as a v1 based viewer. When I crash at an important moment that time can be crucial.
    -No old search. I use both, but using web search for people sucks. It doesn’t find them half the time.
    -Top menus arranged differently than Phoenix. I got used to them eventually but there are more mouse clicks to get to some things I use a lot. Annoying.

    Change these things and you may get me back. Otherwise I will stick to my new viewer choice, Singularity. The claim that v1 viewers can’t be updated is BS… Singularity has multiple layers and everything else that is missing from Phoenix. You just don’t want to update! Why not take Singularity’s code and add the Phoenix features back in. It wouldn’t be identical but it would be better than the big NOTHING that Phoenix users are getting right now.

    Ayesha Lytton

    November 16, 2012

  • “using web search for people sucks. It doesn’t find them half the time.”

    Oh my, you just reminded me about that.. YES!!!

    When it’s acting up like that, I can even type in my own name, try my Account Name, Display Name, and even tried my own UUID.. No Results.

    Isn’t just for people, sometimes it happens to places as well.

    However to your other two reasons.. not sure when the last time you used FS, however the recent updates, the Log In time is on par with Phoenix and when set to Phoenix Mode, the menus are exactly the same.

    Texture loading problems and web search are just the two things not the same (yet).

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

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    Tristan Mercer

    November 16, 2012

  • Wow, the crybabies are out in force. THis is beginning to sound like Mac vs PC, or even better yet iPhone vs Samsung.

    I have NO PROBLEMS using FS. I average 30-40fps on HIGH settings. My Windows score is only 5.2 so don’t tell me that it’s next to impossible to get decent framerates. Matter of fact, my GPU is only an Nvidia GT520 @ 1GB.

    The only thing that lags me is turning on shadows.

    For everyone bitching and whining…there are other viewers out there for you to use if you don’t like Firestorm or gripe that Phoenix is the only one you will use. Phoenix is GOING TO DIE. LL will eventually break the code and then what? If you feel to need to bash Jessica and team for the AWESOME job they are doing for FREE, then go build your own viewer and see how well you do. ‘Nuff said.

    Tristan Mercer

    November 16, 2012

  • A lot of the comments if you actually read them aren’t in regards to how Users cannot use Firestorm, or PC/Viewer settings.

    Take me for example, I get a great framerate in Firestorm on my gaming machine, no lag, etc.

    However majority of my personal comments point out that regardless that I have a high performance machine, on a side to side comparison between the two, Phoenix has Firestorm beat in time to load.

    Plus your comment in regards to “Crybabies” without crybabies to put emphasis on certain features, some of the issues of a product may never get pointed out to the developers, which then they can make the choice to fix, modify, or replace the feature.. and if they do decide to accommodate the “crybabies” have potentially won their business.

    Even apple and sumsung are guilty of this.. if it wasn’t for apple fans griping about lack of apple like features on samsung phones, and samsung users griping about lack of samsung like features on apple, they would never be able to win over their competetor’s customers on the next updated product :) except in the Phoenix’s team case, there will be no lawsuits :D!

    The issue in regards to webbased search: That webbased search is disorganized and slow, which Jessica Lyon commented above above in support of and stated along the lines that it needs to be remedied, and that Phoenix provides a superior search. It was the “crybabies” who opened their mouth and has lead to this issue to being worked on at present :)

    As for me, who isn’t really affected by the performance issues mentioned above, the reason I use Phoenix over Firestorm is, as a club owner, is mostly the webbased search issue because at times I need to perform many multiple searches perday, with certain times (about once a month), needing to perform 100+ staff profile look ups, This task on firestorm is virtually impossible and can take a hour+ due to the slow webbased load times or having to click through multiple links to bring up a profile. Also doesn’t help that profiles refuse to load any information at all when a sim is active and has many users present (which my sim has all the time) or any bit of Server or Client side lag.

    However on phoenix, the task can be completed in 15 minutes and profiles load virtually instantly, no webpages to load, isn’t affected by lag or multiple agents in the vicinity, etc.

    Anyways, with the reply Jessica Lyon made above hinting that Firestorm is going to get a search update, my days of using Phoenix as my primary viewer may soon be over :)!

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

  • I won’t say another thing but FS may be defaulted to web based profile searched but you can undo that.

    Ctrl P >> General. Look on the right upper side. Uncheck under Extras: Use web profiles by default

    You can also point the search to “people” so you are not getting random junk.

    I really love idiots who do nothing but whine and complain. Do you want me to get some cheese?

    Goodbye.

    Tristan Mercer

    November 17, 2012

  • I think a lot of users are aware of this, as it’s on the top of the first page of the prefs, however even though the Profiles may appear similar to Phoenix Viewer’s profiles.. it is still obvious that it is pulling the data from the same database(?) as the web based profile..

    So in other words, it still takes a long time to load during any sort of lag, sometimes failing all together to populate the fields.

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

  • One thing I learned at the Firestorm classes is that textures can actually load better when you reduce the amount of bandwidth you let Firestorm use. The only conclusion I can reach from that is that the code doesn’t handle simultaneous downloads well. (Though I could easily be wrong)

    I lowered the amount of bandwidth it uses in the settings and no more issues with partially baked textures.

    I have no idea how applicable that tip is in regards to your situation, Raven, but it’s an easy thing to try on the remote chance that you haven’t yet.

    As to the overall situation, I agree that it’s obvious… at some point, Phoenix is going to go. And, if you can’t build, you can’t build– it doesn’t matter how dedicated you are. The only way to avoid that is to never upgrade your own machine, and hope nothing crashes.

    Vulpine Eldrich

    November 17, 2012

  • Right, the whole http texture thing is more of a pain explaining to people than a help too. It pretty much boils down to showing the control and telling them to change it (no matter what it says) to see if that will help.

    Kara

    November 17, 2012

  • Yeah I’ve tried throttling my bandwidth by 1000 increments on various log-ins from 1000 up to 10,000 (when firestorm use to allow up to 10,000). At present, my Firestorm is set to ~2000.

    It isn’t always when I have texture issues on Firestorm, mainly it only happens sometimes when I log into or teleport into a club with 40+ individuals (typical average night at my club), an issue that never happens with Phoenix, but believe me, i’ve tried every option in Firestorm i could find to try and remedy the problem (i.e. disabling HTTP textures, setting lossy texture compression, setting low texture quality, texture atlas, or anything texture related I could find.

    I’ve been a Firestorm user since the v2 betas back in 2011, especially when they had the awesome experimental environmental graphics settings page (made SL look so good!), It wasn’t until a bit after Firestorm made the jump to v3 earlier this year and did a complete overhaul of the interface/program that issues with textures began to sprout up :<

    However I still believe there’s hope on the horizon, depending on when the next Firestorm updates come out.. With recent developments and optimizations of V3 Texture Loading on the official viewer (already adapted by CoolVL kicking some ass there too for older PC users), I know i rarely have any issue with the official LL viewer anymore texture related.. so all that is left is waiting for the Phoenix Firestorm Team to apply the new developments to the next firestorm update.. that and of course as I mentioned many times xD sort out the search and have an option to ditch LL’s poorly interfaced Web Search xD

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

  • Amazing, all the bitching and moaning. Let’s go back to Windows 98 while we are at it. I for one thought it was a great OS…for its time. But I don’t use it anymore – I can’t.

    The simple fact is, progress and change happens… and in the computer world especially so. To move design forward, we cannot make everything backwards-compatible, unfortunately.

    The work that an unpaid group like Team Phoenix does is for the good of as many people as possible, which is pretty cool. They have improved their viewers immensely since starting. Now FS is the #1-rated viewer. And I’m sure they would like to please everyone, but that is a losing proposition.

    Personally, I started out with SL V1, moved to Phoenix, and graduated to Firestorm which took some time to get used to. FS may not be as fast as some folks like (typically on their 8-year-old machines) but the same is true about most modern applications compared to their older incarnations. The thing is, the more time that Jessica & Co. spend on trying to shore-up the ever-aging Phoenix, the less time they have to improve a viewer we can take into the future.

    Just my 5 cents.

    Elf Shalear

    November 17, 2012

  • Raven, my roommate has a laptop he got from Best Buy for $429 that has ATI graphics (an AMD A6 CPU with integrated graphics). Runs Firestorm quite well. I just built up a desktop system for less than $500 with ATI graphics as well (an AMD A10-5800K processor with ATI 7660 graphics built in). So no, you don’t have to spend a lot of money to get the hell away from Intel graphics.

    There’s no reason to ever set your bandwidth above 1500. Period. It will *not* help and will likely hurt. I have a 30 MBPS down/5 MBPS up cable Internet connection, and I let my bandwidth default to 500.

    There are only so many of us developers, and only so much time we can devote to the viewer. We just don’t have the time to devote to porting all the work from Singularity back into Phoenix. That would be a large amount of work for a viewer that’s already obsolete and will be nonfunctional sooner rather than later.

    If you want Phoenix updated, you have two choices:
    1) Update it yourself.
    2) Find someone to update it. This will likely involve paying them real money.

    Tonya Souther

    November 17, 2012

  • if you noticed.. i stated “Majority of Laptops under 1200″, Yes i know there’s quite a few with ati or nvidia under those prices, and of course building your own PC, you can always do better than the prebuilt ones for cheaper. Plus there’s always discount stores, buying the last season/year models, or ebay.

    well, all I can say is i’ve tried the lowering bandwidth below 1000 too, same issue, except anythign below 500, there’s an obvious lag in rezzing items and people, so makes the issue even worse, now items/people take quite a while to rez, then on top of that, the slow texture loading.

    all I can say to counter this high bandwidth = bad claim, my Phoenix Viewer is Set to 10,000 bandwidth, absolutely zero problems.

    Also why are you telling me if I want phoenix updated? not once did I say I personally wanted phoenix updated. I want Firestorm updated… web search remedied by forward porting the v1 search into it as an option and the texture loading issues fixed like it is already fixed in the official LL viewer, so i guess add the new code or developments or whatever LL put in their latest viewer.

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

  • After 5 years and 9 months, this fat lady is starting to warm up her voice, prepaired to sing her last song. And that will be when Linden Lab close the access for V1 based coded viewers, when I can’t log in with Phoenix anymore.

    Firestorm don’t work well on my PC, 2+ years old, dual core CPU, 4 GB RAM, Nvidia GPU 1 GB, etc. The viewer is laggy and crashy but I blame Linden Lab. They introduced the hew TPV rules, adding features which makes it difficult for the Firestorm Team to keep up. In the end I think Linden Lab want’s to get rid of all TPV viewers.

    Voff Uggla

    November 17, 2012

  • people have been saying this ever since V2 popped up.

    years later, people are still saying it and LL still has zero intentions to.

    There’s still a high number of SL users who use V1 viewers such as Phoenix, Cool VL Viewer, Singularity. So not only would LL piss off countless users and open themselves a shitstorm of messages, rants, support messages, calls, etc,

    also may lose valuable 3rd party developers (including the v1 viewers) who have helped iron out bugs (code for bug patches) or push/innovate some changes or features.

    However overall, LL may risk losing Money if they cut support for viewers of anything below v3, there’s quite a lot of business/estate owners who who are v1 users that refuse to use v3.

    However if this does happen.. this is a great reason and should be a great motivation for the Firestorm Team to keep working on the Phoenix Mode UI of Firestorm and do more to bring and apply the similar features of Phoenix into Firestorm (such as the search)

    Because if and when that day comes where LL decides to kill the v1 viewers, those users will be on the market for a new Viewer.. and we all know just how much those users hate the LL viewer and all other viewers similar (exodus, nirans, etc), So if Firestorm is there saying Hey, check this out [FSphoenixmode.jpg]! they would of most likely won most over :) including from the other V1 developers such as Singularity, Cool VL Viewer, etc.

    So all I can say is, Phoenix Firestorm Team :)! keep up the work on Firestorm and further develop it’s Phoenix Mode, including the default Phoenix theme (dark-grey and orange).

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

  • No, LL’s not going to explicitly kill V1 viewers. They will, however, make changes to the platform with no regard to compatibility with them. Two changes coming up are the revised HTTP library, and server-side baking. The former is simply incompatible with viewers that do not have the code, and the latter will cause every other avatar to be permanently gray on viewers that do not have the new code in them.

    There is absolutely no point at all to have bandwidth over 3000, as it’s capped to that value by the server. The recommended maximum is 1000 for non-wireless users, and 500 for wireless users. Ask the support people: lowering the bandwidth setting is one of the first recommendations they make, and it fixes a multitude of problems.

    And the “if you want Phoenix update” was aimed generically. My apologies for not making that clear.

    Tonya Souther

    November 17, 2012

  • well, all i can say is my issue isn’t bandwidth related, I have a nice solid connection and great ping in SL (since I am in the same state as the SL servers).

    The only issue I have is the loading of textures, an issue not present in the current Official LL viewer (which I have set to 10,000 bandwidth too xD) , Use to be, so i guess it means it’s solely caused by whatever old code the current available build Firestorm uses (including beta), but I know should eventually be fixed when they get around to eventually applying the newer LL developments.

    Only thing i have to say in regards to bandwidth.. for me, no matter if in Phoenix, Firestorm, or The Official LL Viewer, the one and only thing it affects is the loading of models (prims, sculpts, & mesh).. if i set it below 1000, it causes a club full of people and furniture to load one by one by one by one by one.. having it set to 2-3000, causes it to load chunk by chunk by chunk, 10,000 causes (on a good day) everything to show up all at once.

    then the textures just begin to load separate as each model rezzes regardless if one by one or in groups.

    Even if one by one, I still have the issue on some days where the textures fail to load fully (pixelated/blurry) or fail to load at all (grey models).

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

  • @ Tonya
    Well that was news to me, cause in one of the interviews Jessice did with one of the Lindens, OZ I think it was.He said they would, and another thing he said was, when Jessica asked; “Now with the rearview mirror in hand, they would never had made the code, open source”.

    So they won’t close server access to V! viewers, I guess they noticed how many residents still use them. So they change tacticts and introduce new code, that make SL worthless to be in with V1 viewers.Oh well, I don’t go anywhere these days, I mostly stay on my land, alone.

    By the way, have anyone noticed how cheap land is now. I have a quarter sim and only pay L$ 1660/week, 937 prims. I guess a lot of residents already left SL and the Estate owners had to drop their prices.

    Voff Uggla

    November 18, 2012

  • @Voff Uggla

    a 1/4 (quarter) sim with only 937 prims = a Homestead.

    Considering homesteads Still cost estate owners $125 or about L$25,000-28,000

    @ 1660 per week, that is still about right..

    Also as far as I remembered when i use to rent land, renting a 4096 sq/m sim on a full estate cost L$1350-1600, and 1/4 homestead sims always cost 1500-1800.

    Also got to factor in who your estate owner is.. if it’s one of the long time estate owners, they may have Grandfathered estates, so may be able to charge just 1200-1300 per week for a 1/4 sim (there are a quite a few out there) but most of them just charge the normal going rate to make a profit.

    But yeah.. if anything, land prices have gone up over the past couple years.. and Estate owners cannot drop their prices if their price paid to LL doesn’t drop ($125 for homestead and $295 for Full).

    You just happened to find yourself a homestead sim, and an owner who isnt charging 2.0-2.5 per prim pricing. You have 1.77 per prim pricing.. still a bit more than necessary (i’d only go for 1.5), but better than most.

    Raven

    November 18, 2012

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    Dolly Kerr

    November 17, 2012

  • If you are incapeable of keeping the code up in both viewers perhaps you should not be doing either, despite the fact that Firestorm has barely taken over from Phoenix it has taken a very long time.

    There will always be a large number of people that prefer Phonex over Firestorm (SL will most likely become a footnote in the internet before this changes.)and your stance is a slap in the face of all the people that have suppored you over the years making you undeserving of even keeping Firestorm under your control. I am disgusted with you and your stance.

    It took you over a year just to remove those annoying timestamps from all the chat windows something that should have been done early on and you still have not given us the ability to use a custom texture on newly created prims.

    Despite the fact I use Firestorm most of the time Phoenix is still the superior viewer over the Firestorm web browser. It is easier to use and looks far better. Firestorm looks and feels like a flimsy piece of junk and frankly works like one.

    Yes you have made great strides in improving that complete POS that LL tried to foster on us but no matter how much lipstick you put on this pig it will remain a pig.

    I only use it because I am moving to building exclusively in mesh. The problem with FS is it the last version crashes everytime I try to upload anything mesh or texture and have to move to the LL viewer to do that. This is unaceptable.

    I love using the newest and greatest stuff but this viewer is the MS Millenium/Vista/windows 8 viewer and it always will be. Untill you actually paste the V1 menu and window UI into Firestorm not this half arsed garbage it has now.

    If you like FS over PH that’s great more power to you I have no issue with someone liking what they like but to keep slapping in the face the very people that have suppored you over the years sure sounds like LL has taken over this project.

    I have sat back and watched you badmouth Phoenix time and time again and have to wonder why do you even do this you obviously do not appreciate all the people that supported you when you took over work on the Phoenix viewer.

    Dolly Kerr

    November 17, 2012

  • hey, don’t knock Windows 8 unless you use it xD

    Has a slight performance over Windows 7 at current especially with most 3rd party drivers (i.e. graphics) now fully supporting it and smoother overall operation.

    My guess is you’re one of those individuals who think the new Modern UI (aka metro, the interface with the tiles) is purely the OS, instead of in reality, just a start menu replacement which can be disabled with a few simple tweaks in under a minute or download an add-on to do it for you if your not sure how to change settings.

    My Windows 8:

    http://i333.photobucket.com/albums/m376/sorrowdemonica/Untitled-1_zps1ca33bee.jpg

    No different than Windows 7, except faster boot time, faster app load, and smoother all around operation.

    Raven

    November 17, 2012

  • Again nobody is deleting phoenix from your hard drive.

    You have a better position that the users of most programming projects when they go into non-supported: all of the source code is there. Someone who is motivated enough is free to compile it with the latest mods that you want. Lifecycles are pretty common in the IT world where you are already making plans to transition to the next version of something while installing the previous one.

    Kara

    November 18, 2012

  • @kara
    i really dont think their rant is about upgrading phoenix “with the latest mods’.. no one wants phoenix to be touched.. it’s perfect as it is.

    their rant is more about the phoenix team turning their backs and abandoning phoenix when so many users still use it and is the viewer that put the phoenix team on the map, so to still show some respect.

    Raven

    November 18, 2012

  • @raven “it’s perfect as it is”

    When it eventually stops being supported it will remain how it is if at the time. The only thing that changes is it will not get any updates. Again, NOBODY is coming to your computer to delete it. I still use other clients that are unsupported and they work perfectly fine.

    So if it is ‘perfect’ what is the fuss?

    Kara

    November 18, 2012

  • @ Kara

    Are you even reading anything?

    “So if it is ‘perfect’ what is the fuss?”

    As I tried to tell you, the fuss is not about Phoenix. The Fuss is about Firestorm Viewer and the demeanor of the Firestorm Team.

    And again I still dont understand what you mean by ” NOBODY is coming to your computer to delete it. ” No one ever stated anywhere above about anything related to deleting any viewer or us being forced to remove it.

    Raven

    November 18, 2012

  • I think the simplest solution to the rants and issues above is keep any mention of Phoenix out of any discussion of Firestorm updates.

    Attempting to mention any news about Phoenix, particularly trying to hint at Firestorm is better than Phoenix at it’s core will just insult users (particularly due to reasons mentioned (it isn’t) above in comments).

    Best thing to do is just let Phoenix slip out of the conscious mind of everyone, let Firestorm be it’s own separate viewer and stop trying to compare them side by side..

    I have some ideas for a solution:

    1. The first step in my opinion would be change it’s name from Phoenix Firestorm to just Firestorm Viewer.

    2. Get a new domain/site dedicated solely to Firestorm, FirestormViewer.com or whatever..

    3. Stop calling Firestorm a replacement/alternative for Phoenix.. It will never be a replacement… it has absolutely nothing in common at it’s core.

    4. Start calling Firestorm what it really is.. It’s own independent viewer and alternative to the horrid Linden Labs Viewer.

    5. Continue to integrate the good legacy Phoenix features into Firestorm under the Legacy UI (Phoenix Mode), the ones that are better than what Linden Labs has to offer (i.e. search, menu layouts, themes, etc).

    Just a few steps like this in a different direction I believe can help alleviate rants such as those above, won’t alienate Phoenix users, and I am sure slowly by slowly over the months win more and more phoenix users, particularly when word of mouth spreads of the Phoenix UI Mode of Firestorm.

    Also if Firestorm does make it on it’s own website one day, what really can help.. instead of only having Update blogs full of text and links.. Put actual snapshots of the viewer, particularly Phoenix Mode, in the post so that if a Phoenix Viewer stumble upon it.. they will see it and say.. oh Hey! it’s Phoenix! However before you do that.. make sure you get Firestorm’s Phoenix mode Theme color corrected.. Orange and Grey by default with option to change to blue.. Fresh install of Phoenix = dark theme by default (orange and grey).

    Actual Photos (not links) of new features/updates within the news postings would do much more good than only writing of the new update.

    Raven

    November 18, 2012

  • Thank you to the Devs who make viewers possible. Don’t let the drama and ranting get you down. Just do what you do and rest assured that those who scream loudest probably spend the least amount of time inworld using the fruits of your labors.

    Cincia

    November 18, 2012

  • I’ve noticed how things like the search really do lag something awful in the newer viewers and I don’t even search in the viewer anymore. I search using the Second Life web page in my browser and then transfer the surl from the map to my viewer. It more hassle but at least it works.

    I would really welcome an updated search that will actually work in world.

    Another thing I do if I need to administrative like things like managing groups or multiple searches is parking my avatar someplace out of the way, I have an office in my home and log back in on a graphics viewer like Radegast. Once you take the graphics out of the picture, searches, group and inventory management can fly.

    I love Firestorm now, I hated the v2 viewers when they first came out but forced myself to adapt and simply couldn’t go back now. Thanks a lot to the Firestorm/Phoenix team on all the fine work they do.

    Unknown

    November 18, 2012

  • FIX Viewer Skin: starlight (silver_blue) being able to type in Animations names in AVSIT and I will swap to FS. A jira was filed showing the bug of not being able to type animation names in the dialog window using starlight silver blue in Firestorm Viewer yet not action has been taken to fix this bug… When its fixed I will swap to FS, I DO need to be able to name my animations unless you want to buy furniture with the lazy sit1 sit2 sit3, Kiss1 Kiss2 kiss3 YAWN

    Bibbi Secondlife

    November 20, 2012

  • @Bibbi – could you let me know what the JIRA number is and I will look into it for you. I couldn’t seem to find it when I searched the JIRA.

    Hitomi

    November 21, 2012

  • If you don’t like Firestorm, don’t use it. If you don’t like the attitude you think the Firestorm/Phoenix developers (or some of them) sport, don’t use their software. They do what they see fit and share the results for free. The viewers being in the public domain doesn’t entitle anybody to anything. If you don’t switch to the official Second Life Viewer or any of the other Third Party Viewers, it only demonstrates that they don’t seem to offer what you want. Bummer. Deal with it.

    Raymond Martinek

    November 21, 2012

  • Everyone must use it.. using the official LL Viewer or any other 3rd party viewer is just cruel and malicious, I wouldn’t wish that upon anyone.

    We must spread the word. Firestorm is here to stay!

    Raven

    November 21, 2012

  • @Dolly Kerr
    The devs provide their time and code for free. Firestorm may not be the only coding project they are doing. If the environment to develop Phoenix any further isn’t practical or possible for them to keep on their machines, why would you suggest they shouldn’t continue to develop for Firestorm which is based on current tools and libraries?

    The dev team have been saying for the last year that development for Phoenix would slow and then end. It now appears to be at that final point. If somebody else wants to keep working on it then better luck to them. Otherwise, enjoy Phoenix in it’s current incarnation for as long as it does what you need it to do.

    Karl

    November 21, 2012

  • Actually the LL viewer works very well. It does lack the additional shiny that Firestorm builds in and it doesn’t work as well on the older hardware as Phoenix, but describing the standard LL viewer like people do is disingenuous and takes away from their credibility. People should put their efforts into attracting more people to SL in general or they’ll find themselves with a nice viewer but no where with meaningful concurrency to use it.

    Cincia

    November 22, 2012

  • I want to be able to click the graph on the Upper RH corner for the lag meter as in Phoenix.

    Yasmin

    November 23, 2012

  • Loving the sound options. but there a sound option missing. object collisions. there times i wish i could just turn that damn sound off alone. lol

    Used the beta for awhile. works great..

    however KDE in Linux, this happens on the stable version also. 98% of the time ill crash re sizing my viewer window for whatever reason. Would put this in the jira but having login issues im trying to fix

    Troy Foxxin

    November 25, 2012

  • well as soon as you make a less buggy firestorm i would be glad to try it because according to your viewer my amd radeoh 4250 and my amd p2 360 dual core processor@2.30 giga or mega hertz according to the viewer my computer is able to handle firestorm on hihg graphics i cannot even handle it on low graphics with the setting just set to where i can see the lights in my house and the water the way its supposed to be and the dd set at 64 and didnt yall borrow henris(the maker of cool vl) notes on making mesh in phoenix just look at them again and make a pheonix with multiwear support then all your pheonix fans will be happy and i know i will be happy i cannot even runt the new singularity on low setting and cool vl i can only cam out soo far….soo in the long run for those of us who cannot afford gaming grpahics cards….phoenix with multi layer support good firestorm bad

    jt

    November 27, 2012

  • I tried Firestorm, more than once and hoped for better times with any release… but instead it got worse! It’s sad to see you compare Phoenix with Firestorm… it is not!

    I’m not talking about the interface only, even I hate that clumsy interface thing that cannot be moved off the top right corner, besides some details I’m talking about resources and performance.

    Continue the work and someday someone else will fill the gap… or… might happen as well, we have gone.

    Shy Robbiani

    November 27, 2012

  • pheonixviewer is being a bitch. keeps wigging out on me.

    kelsey

    November 29, 2012

  • @Hitomi, you wont find the Jira because the Jira FIRE-7496 Whirly Fizzle closed it! Not fixed it, CLOSED IT. Citing it was a duplicate so what does that mean? Someone else has reported it as a problem and it is still not fixed? And if It was a duplicate as flagged by Whirly why couldn’t you find any Jira on this subject? I dont know all I know is when FS and ALL SKINS are working correctly for basic needs like AVSIT I will be happy to use FS but if it does not have all the functions on ALL Skins then…

    Bibbi Secondlifes

    November 29, 2012

  • @Bibbi,

    Looking up FIRE-7496 it says it is closed as duplicate of FIRE-3134. So, if you go and look at FIRE-3134 you will see that one is marked “Fixed” and “passed QA” and if you look at fix version you will see it says 4.3.0. Now, if you look at the version of the public beta you will see it is 4.3.0.#####. This means.. the problem you are complaining about has been fixed and is available in the public beta.

    The fact that your complaining about it means you didn’t bother checking to see if it was fixed.

    Jessica Lyon

    November 29, 2012

  • @Jessica and the Firestorm team

    I know there are a lot of suggestions and concerns posted here with some more tactfully put than others (it takes all kinds to make the world go round haha), but there are many users rooting for you and looking forward to each release. I hope some of the comments do not discourage you.

    Yes, the move away from v1 codebase slowed the viewer down and it never really has caught back up, but the newest LL viewer is doing much better (well at least from my limited perspective) so I am optimistic that when the latest code gets merged into Firestorm the speed will increase.

    I know it is subjective, but personally it is hard to go back to v1 viewers. The feel is so clunky to me compared to the v3 interface. But I know there are rl reasons (hardware and just personal tastes) where some people still need or want the legacy viewers so I don’t want to paint with too broad a brush here.

    I just wanted to give you some encouragement and say keep up the good work. I know there are always going to be bugs and improvements to be made and sometimes they fall through the cracks, but overall the progress has been steady and worthwhile.

    Keep the faith! Have a wonderful holiday season!

    Travis Reston

    November 30, 2012

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    Bibbi Secondlifes

    December 1, 2012

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    Bibbi Secondlifes

    December 1, 2012

  • @ Jessica, Ummm to use your own words… The fact that you say it is fixed means you didn’t bother checking to see if it was. I repeat you CANNOT enter animation named is Diag box using Viewer Skin: starlight (silver_blue) Setting mode: Phoenix in AVSIT.. Please check yourself, I have :) And as far as The head bone connected to the neck bone,
    The neck bone connected to the back bone,
    The back bone connected to the thigh bone Jiras…
    I dont have time to build skeletons I am too busy checking for the fix.

    Bibbi Secondlifes

    December 1, 2012

  • @Bibbi

    I’ve checked this in Firestorm 4.3.x right now. It works. Screen: http://img163.imageshack.us/img163/3964/schowek02ct.jpg

    I personally suggest doing a good, clean viewer reinstall.

    Pantera Północy

    December 1, 2012

  • @Pantera, clean install, cannot change Aminations names using Viewer Skin: starlight (silver_blue)
    Setting mode:PHOENIX PHOENIX PHOENIX
    If you can reproduce after changing your setting mode to Phoenix and skin to starlight (silver blue) I am jealous

    Bibbi Secondlifes

    December 2, 2012

  • Firestorm mode affects default settings only, “overall feel and look” of the browser. And in fact doesn’t matter too much in this case.

    http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/fs_viewer_modes

    “Cannot change Aminations names using Viewer Skin: starlight (silver_blue)”.

    I’ve successfully pressed F2 with highlighted animation, changed its name and pressed Enter. New name was saved. All on Starlight Silver Blue.

    Pantera Północy

    December 2, 2012

  • @Pantera Avsit Video Tutorial, shows that you rename animations by typing in the new name into the diag window. In Starlight Silver_blue you CANNOT type the new animations in the diag window, can you do it in Firestorm (Dark)? YES. Can you do it in Starlight Silver_blue? NO. Again you CANNOT type in this window at all. As far as F2 and highlighting goes if you know this work around GREAT if you do not and the products instructions tells you to do it another way. Well.. So if you can follow a products instructions successfully in at least one of FS viewers skin that I know of then the products set up instructions are correct. As I said way back when, when I can name my animations in FS using Starlight Silver blue by typing in the diag window as per the products video instructions I will be happy to use it. Until then it remains a Bug in this skin and is not fixed.

    Bibbi Secondlifes

    December 2, 2012

  • @Bibbi

    I’ve looked at tutorial here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sel5-BuCZOM and reliazed, that this is a llTextBox() method used there. I’ve recorded a movie, especially for you. Please take a look:

    http://youtu.be/YQ0wMdn-7CI

    I recommend – again – doing a clean reinstall of your viewer. With a complete uninstallation process first, not installing over your existing installation.

    http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/fs_clean_reinstall

    Or, you may just wait for 4.3.1 release, because new installer remove skin files of previous installation automatically, installing updated ones.

    Pantera Północy

    December 2, 2012

  • I would love it if Firestorm had the same lay out as Phoenix and the old LL viewer. I truly hate the lay out in Firestorm and the new LL viewers, why mess with a lay out that was so user friendly and so much more appealing as the original Phoenix lay out :0( And now we are being forced to use that horridly ugly viewer because we are left with no option*sobs*

    Mys Tigerpaw

    December 2, 2012

  • @Mys Tigerpaw

    Have you tried Phoenix mode / Vintage skin in Firestorm?

    Pantera Północy

    December 2, 2012

  • @Pantera, Do you own Avsit? If you do I would ask you to try and rename your animations using the diag window how it appears in Silver blue skin. I think you will realise it is impossible to type in the window. Jiras were filed and closed citing a fix Perhaps that is why there were duplicates Jiras about this bug. To use Jessicas own words back to her The fact that she is complaining about it still being discussed means you didn’t bother checking to see it is not fixed. How are people going to know there is a ‘work around’ Pantera? You buy the product, you watch the set up video and depending on what skin you are using in Firestorm it does not work. Now if it can work with one FS skin then the program AVSIT is compatible. Why not take the time to make sure all your Viewer skins work especially when the problem has been brought to your attention via Jiras. Duplicates in this case means the original Jira was closed and marked as FIXED when it was not

    Bibbi Secondlifes

    December 2, 2012

  • New release looks good, the photo tools is worth waiting for

    Bibbi Secondlifes

    December 3, 2012

  • Only thing i dont like about the new releases is the walk button does not have the bar on top to grab the button to move it on screen so its harder to grab hope you can change that to the older one that has a bar with Wwalk bar to grab it

    ricky dj

    December 6, 2012

  • Well i have done that, i gave firestorm a chance, found the nice “phoenix style UI” and yeah it’s really nice…, but still it’s so slow heavy and laggy.
    I’m sorry but it’s a general rule in math to endorse the simplest way if you get the same results and the difference of speed between those 2 viewers is outstanding, so why should we use a less efficient software?
    My phoenix with mesh runs so nicely and smooth and fast
    I’m sorry Firestorm is just wrong and that’s it.
    Not quite sure why you guys want go against math rule of simplicity supporting that ball’n'chain …

  • That’s my thoughts :)

    Every one of the Firestorm supporters will argue against it, but simple fact of the matter is they will ignore the fact if you point out that Firestorm/V3 are slower in load times such as textures and objects and not as smooth. Instead will tell you to get “a new computer” which doesn’t solve the problems, only hides them.

    Ignoring the features exclusive to Firestorm (such as phoenix mode)… Performance wise, unfortunately, Firestorm will only be as fast as the Official Viewer but a few steps back. because Unlike Phoenix where the core of the viewer’s development was based on over innovating, and outperforming the official V1 viewer to the point it took them over and LL was months behind in development… with v3, it’s more like the opposite now, Firestorm is always in the shadow of V3 when it comes to performance, development, and innovation.

    So due to this, it wont be until LL optimizes and addresses the issues with it’s viewers related to users on older PCs and other performance related optimizations. So when this happens, maybe Firestorm will catch up to that eventually when they integrate the new coding in a release months later, which by then Linden Labs would of released 3+ newer updates (fixes and optimizations) on top of that.

    Raven

    December 6, 2012

  • Is there any hope of loosing the toasts at all..Ive tried to get used to them for months but I just hate them, is there any skin or user face I can use for firestorm that will still give me the square looking pop up notice upper right hand corner that I have to ok when some one pays me?

    Starry Eyed

    December 11, 2012

  • So you guys took over Emerald just to kill it and produce yet another LL Viewer clone ?

    Very nice move.

    To those who miss Phoenix: I have been using Singularity and find it very close to Phoenix and quite nice. I recommend giving it a try.

    Boots

    December 11, 2012

  • Wow, I just can’t believe some of the comments here. I mean, I know it takes all types, but why can’t people be appreciative of the massive amount of work the Phoenix/Firestorm folks are giving to us for FREE. I perfectly understand why they’re phasing out Phoenix. It’s older code that’s just not as rich in features and has some problems with future improvements and upgrades. I also understand that some people are running on minimum hardware and prefer to use a lighterweight viewer. In those cases, use Phoenix (for as long as it’s supported by Linden) and/or use one of the other viewers or use Metabolt. Please please PLEASE don’t knock all the hard work these folks are doing for FREE. I’m a programmer myself and often give away scripts inworld, but I’m not part of this team. However, I’ve got nothing but applause for all their wonderful efforts and the wonderful programs they’re bringing us. Also, if people really have problems with the code, hey, it’s open source. Fix it yourself. To the Phoenix/Firestorm team: Keep up the WONDERFUL work. KyleFlynn

    Kyle Flynn

    December 11, 2012

  • Well we can not use Phoenix because it is not supported by “Phoenix/Firestorm team”, not because it is not supported by LL.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • @boots, but LL is the place the code originates from and at anytime LL can disable support for V1 viewers and pull their server side code, thus causing Phoenix, CoolVL, Singularity, etc. to fail to log to the grid permanently.

    That day may come someday, but probably not for another year or two or never at all. however I still choose to use Phoenix until Firestorm fully integrates the Phoenix features (which it is at the verge of doing so).

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • @Raven latest Phoenix crashes on me all the time. Previous one does not support mesh. So yes, you are right, LL can drop Phoenix at any time, but in reality it has been dropped by Ms. Lyon and Co. already.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • @boots, dunno what to ay abotu phoenix, must be something with your system.. it still works for me.. i use Version 1.6.0 and 1.6.1 they both support mesh (since 1.5) and work just fine.. it’s my primary daily viewer.

    you may want to do a clean install of phoenix, if that still doesnt work.. try running the program as Administrator (right click Run As Administrator), and if that too fails, right click it>properties>compatibility> Run with compatibility for windows 7, vista, xp, etc.. try each one :)

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • @boots

    oh yeah.. if you happen to be using Windows 8, and have a nvidia graphics card.. make sure you are not using 306.97.. upgrade your drivers to 307.21 or higher.. the 306 series drivers cause C++ errors and cause some games to not run.. Phoenix being one of them..

    or if you use AMD or Intel graphics.. also make sure they are the latest.

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • @Raven I am on Mac

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • I guess that explains everything…

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • Well it does not explain why Phoenix support is dropped.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • Its all feedback,and feedback is GOLDEN. if you want to know how ppl feel then let them express how they feel, take the parts that you think are valid and ignore the things you dont. But smart ppl are always going to welcome feedback no matter how it is expressed. Thankfully most of us live in countries where we are not dictated to on how we should speak or what we should think..Keep it all real I say :)

    Starry Eyed

    December 12, 2012

  • Again, you will lose people. I don’t understand why LL has to make it more difficult and costly for the average user to stay in SL. To me it’s just bad business.
    Make it easier to use SL not harder, whatever business model you are using sucks.

    Caoilte

    December 13, 2012

  • Actually, that business model goes both ways.. Sure upgrading may cause you to lose some users.. but what if LL never upgraded it’s viewers and they worked and look exactly the same way they did back in 2002 or 2003? If that was the case.. I think they’d have no more users. It would look like shit compared to other online worlds, and lack in a ton of features.

    So in reality, there’s a fine balance to maintain.. you must upgrade to keep up with the times and appeal to new users and keep current users getting bored of the same stuff year after year interested as well.

    Raven

    December 13, 2012

  • In my view, LL should stop leading development of viewers. Instead, they should provide some basic viewer for beginners, publish its API and focus on what nobody else can do – infrastructure, which sucks, frankly. Instead they are investing our money into development of inferior products like Viewer 2 and forcing us to use it.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • @boots.. LL regretted the day when they opensourced the LL code.. all it’s been to them is Headaches and cause money loss and a lot of complaints.

    Anyways, they ditched Viewer 2 when Viewer 3 was released and so far majority of SL users love it.

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • @Raven Majority of SL users ? Do they have a choice ? Let’s see the choice is between LL Viewer 3, Firestorm (Viewer2 clone) and non-working Phoenix, and some other products nobody heard of. Well, I do not know about you, but I am not surprised “majority of SL users love it”. Btw, where can I see the voting results ?

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • @boots, just be happy you have a choice

    plus there’s way way way more than just those of Viewer 3, there’s Firestorm, Exodus, Nirans, Catznip.

    plus then there’s Phoenix, CoolVL, Singularity, etc.

    Listen, if Phoenix isn’t workign for you and you dont like Viewer 3 or Firestorm’s Phoenix mode..

    Use Nirans or use CoolVL if you insist on using V1.. CoolVL is one of the most stable V1 Viewer Builds.. it also has the most backported v3 features in it and latest development bugfixes and patches sometimes before the official v3 release gets it integrated.

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • @Raven speaking of regrets, there are couple more things LL should regret, in my view:
    1. Investing money into taking over and revamping XStreet
    2. Turning SL into virtual dating place
    3. Investing money into My Second Place and trying follow Facebook
    I can go on if you wish.
    Like I said, they should have focused on infrastructure, increase their own efficiency to reduce land cost and outsource the rest to others.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • sound liek bad investments :<

    Xstreet isn’t needed anymore when there’s a nice marketplace and the more awesome direct delivery.

    dating place… i dunno what to say about that.. just no.

    facebook would crush it and i doubt many users would care for social stuff. all most users care about is doing stuff in world.. not writing wall posts or status updates.

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • @Raven just to remind you history of it, Marketplace is the product of LL’s taking over XStreet. XStreet did not disappear because it lost the competition with “nice” Marketplace.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • all i remember of xstreet is problems.. money being eaten > products not delivery with no way to get a refund/redelivery. and other spontaneous issues.
    It was nice for the seller but bad for the consumer..

    Marketplace on the otherhand money isn’t spontaneously eaten when item fails to delivery, if it fails, your money isnt deducted, also can get redelivery, and sure at first was difficult for the sellers, but LL got those kinks worked out and it’s great.. especially with direct delivery.. no need for magic boxes or packing items into boxes.. just place them into a folder in your inventory (which you would of done anyways) and put them in the direct delivery folder and done.. it’s instantly available and ready to be listed and when someone buys it, it’s instantly delivered straight to their inventory, no need to unpack, ready to wear/use and done. everyone happy :)

    Xstreet can burn in hell x3

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • You just confirm my point. XStreet was glitching because the infrastructure supplied by SL was not working properly. Instead of taking it over, LL should have worked with XStreet to improve it by providing more reliable and efficient framework.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • they did. it’s calle dMarketplace.. would you have liked it if they just named Marketplace XStreet?

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • @Raven if you read my post carefully, I mentioned Firestorm and Phoenix.
    I personally use Singularity.

    And I am talking about Phoenix and what happened to Emerald project. And you keep telling me that if I do not like Firestorm I can use something else.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • well you make it sound like phoenix isn’t working for you and that you hate v3. so listed the alternatives for v3 and phoneix, which happen to be Firestorm or Nirans for v3 or CoolVL for v1

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • You should read more carefully. I dislike V2 and its clones including Firestorm.
    Thank you very much for suggestions, but I am discussing the development of the “Phoenix/Firestorm” project, not looking for a viewer here.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • just think of Phoenix/Firestorm as any other company.. if any other company released a new product to replace the old.. do they still update and offer support for the old? no they do not..

    Adobe for example.. they Release a new Version i.e. CS series.. and once they released those.. they stopped support and updates for the normal Photoshop series..

    Intel, They release a New CPU i5/i7 series.. they stop support and updates on the older Core and pentium series..

    Linden Labs release V2.. they stopped support an dupdates for their V1 viewer. they release v3, and kill support for v2.

    I don’t know why you think Phoenix/Firestorm would be any different?

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • Because Phoenix was a project to continue development of Emerald, which was *different* from LL viewer. What this project has become is Firestorm – LL viewer clone. That is sad.

    Boots

    December 15, 2012

  • If phoenix fifnt take over Emerald and Emerald continued as it was.. it would of too had to of gone the v3 route. just like Phoenix, Just like Exodus, just like everyone else..

    or choose to die like imprudence.

    or dump all their time and efforts to keeping the V1 engine working like CoolVL only to probably one day face LL killing support for V1 and then suddenly your sole project fails to log in and you have no v3 alternative.. so guess what, you just went out of business. exactly what will happen to CoolVL and Singularity if LL ever decided to disable V1 support. they will be left with no viewer and now have to spend months+ creating a brand new viewer to get back in the game or most likely give up.

    The Phoenix/Firestorm team made the right decision.. they are future proofing their place in the LL Viewer market.. every couple of months LL does their major updates and slowly and slowly are disablign more and more V1 support.. and everytime that happens, Phoenix breaks more.. CoolVL has to scramble to patch all the messed up features, and Singularity generally doesn’t work for months as they are slow to respond to changes, while firestorm on the other hand keeps on working.

    Raven

    December 15, 2012

  • Boots said:

    “And I am talking about Phoenix and what happened to Emerald project.”

    So what? The Phoenix/Firestorm team has already decided how they should apply their limited resources most sensibly. If that decision is not consonant with your expectations, well… You might have a problem here. Or not. You are using Singularity anyway.

    Btw: Firestorm (current release) is still running well on my Macintosh, which is almost five years old.

    Raymond Martinek

    December 15, 2012

  • Does anyone from the ph/fs team contribute hear, last I saw was Jessica popped in to chastise Bibby almost a month ago but nothing since. Would be good if someone from the team would enter in and address some of the concerns like the one I asked about pretty please

    Starry Eyed

    December 16, 2012

  • Guess theres my answer lol

    Starry Eyed

    December 23, 2012

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