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LL changes to group member lists

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We’ve been getting some complaints about group member lists not loading for some groups… here is why…

Linden Lab recently made some changes to groups. A group with over 5000 members will no longer load the list of members unless you are an owner or officer in the group OR if you’ve been assigned to a role in the group which gives you the ability to load the list. This change was made in order to reduce server load and help reduce other group issues like group chat lag.

This is not a viewer bug, it is intended behavior.

For more information about this change please have a look over at Inara Pey’s post here. http://wp.me/pxezy-d37

Jira’s related to this change are BUG-9404BUG-9428, and BUG-9393

 

The Firestorm Team.

  • While I appreciate positive changes to SL and I also realise this was not an action by the FS group, it is strange that nothing was flagged up in the LL blogs about this. The change for Premium members of SL to a 60 group limit was also unannounced – clandestine behaviour from LL who usually shout their “improvements” to SL from the roof-tops, even when they are of dubious worth.

    Ayesha Askham

    June 12, 2015

  • “The change for Premium members of SL to a 60 group limit was also unannounced”

    That is not true, LindenLabs did announce that. If you log in on your personal dashboard daily or more often, then you would have known that new things for Premium Members are announced.

    https://community.secondlife.com/t5/Featured-News/Premium-Membership-in-Second-Life-Just-Got-Better/ba-p/2936342

    Yes, perhaps it wasn’t announced a few days in advance, but you saying it was announced is *whatever*..

    Zoey

    June 13, 2015

  • Correction: Yes, perhaps it wasn’t announced a few days in advance, but you saying it was “unannounced” is *whatever*..

    Zoey

    June 13, 2015

  • I remember when they fixed the group chat bug. I saw it tested on the Beta Grid. I saw it hammered – hard – and it held up.

    Whatever happened to that?

    Marx Dudek

    June 12, 2015

  • There have been a lot of group chat tests on the beta grid lately and possibly more to come. The tests are usually done during the server beta user group.
    As far as I’m aware all the fixes that have been tested are live on Agni now.
    Group chat lag does seem pretty much fixed & has been for a good few weeks now apart from a couple of small setbacks (also fixed.)

    Whirly Fizzle

    June 12, 2015

  • Actually i thought its a serverside bug recently. So now just LL’s another nonsense touch instead of actually try fix the whole group system.
    Now i can sit around dumbass when trying to find out who actually the owner or officer in any of my groups where i has no any role… :/

    Venompapa

    June 13, 2015

  • It isn’t that the Lab is NOT trying to fix the problem. Not loading the full group list is a work-around to fix group chat problems that affects more people than large lists not loading does. The work-around was chosen because the fix is going to take some work and time.

    This is another of those legacy code problems where the basic way something was done needs to change. Such changes affect many parts of the system making changes complex and they spread through the system.

    Nalates Urriah

    July 3, 2015

  • I am not in such groups that have more then 5000 groupmembers, so this is not so important to me. What I find more important is that the viewer finally gets tested by people that do not own a gaming computer. Really, it totally frustrates me that when I leave my avi afk at my home a couple hours and the viewer is then so damn laggy that I have to relog to flush that out.

    I have not updated to 4.7.1 because of that attachment bug, so I am still on 4.6.9. But I lag horribly when there are 10 or more people around me. Sudden crashes that the viewer goes poof. When is this all going to be fixed? For a few previous releases, I have not experienced any stability improvements at all. And no, it is not my computer because I have not changed anything. The viewer did well about a year or two before, but now lately it is totally getting soo bad.

    Yea, I derender people that are having 300, 400, 500+ scripts. But the viewer gets so bad because of the stupid things that is being added that an average user does not even use. Why do this?

    I can name one for example, and I bet that is not really the cause of it but what was the point of adding the ‘roll dice’ feature for roleplayers? When I used to roleplay, that was a feature that was in a hud designed for that place. So to add this to a viewer, is beyond me as making any sense.

    Don’t just focus on good performance gained when having a super gaming computer. Not everyone can afford that!!

    Zoey

    June 13, 2015

  • Zoey, did you file a JIRA issue reporting your poor performance and crashes?
    If you don’t report your problems, they cannot be fixed.
    Best thing to do is file a JIRA (http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/file_a_jira) and be sure to give your full system information from Help -> About Firestorm, your viewer logs after a running a session where you experience poor performance (the above link tells you where to find your logs) and a zip of your settings backup folder (see http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/backup_settings) and someone will be able to help you.

    Whirly Fizzle

    June 13, 2015

  • Whizzy, derendering people with lots of scripts does absolutely nothing. Scripts run on the server – not in your viewer. If their scripts are causing server lag, the only thing you can change that is to ban them from the sim, not derender them.

    Redwood Rhiadra

    July 11, 2015

  • I guess it makes sense, but as part of my job is contact and coordination with clubs to run events for Hugo’s Design I can see i’m going to have to go to a venue…edit a prim…see who owns it…then ask “so who’s in charge around here” an awful lot.

    …and hope theyre not a build bot…and get back to me in time.

    Alex Bristol

    June 13, 2015

  • Ok, I’m guessing LL didn’t stop to consider that group members need to be able to access the group list to find out who group owners and officers are if there is an issue with the group? You can’t even go into the “roles” tab to see who the officers are anymore..

    AliKat Steampunk

    June 14, 2015

  • They thought of it… not loading the full list is a temporary work-around to improve chat while they work on the list loading.

    Nalates Urriah

    July 3, 2015

  • i still have this ctr+alt+f1 combo problem on my acer, windows 8.1. how can i solve the problem? -.-” the combo still doesnt work…

    w.a.

    June 14, 2015

  • If you can’t find what other program on your system is stealing that keybinding then best thing to do is to file a support JIRA issue so support can help you – http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/file_a_jira

    Whirly Fizzle

    June 15, 2015

  • I’m a little frustrated with this change because it has also seemed to make it where I can’t leave the groups with more than 5000 members. It began when I started noticing the member lists wouldn’t load in some group profiles I would pull up.

    I’m not sure if this is a bug that is linked with this change, but it is frustrating.

    Keltora Edenbaum

    June 15, 2015

  • Are you using an older version of Firestorm? You will not be able to leave large groups on Firestorm 4.6.7 or earlier.
    Firestorm 4.6.9 release and 4.7.1 beta should work correctly.
    See https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-9428

    Whirly Fizzle

    June 15, 2015

  • with the new upgrade to 45325, when I cross the sims, I end up losing pieces of my avatar or the clothes I’m wearing. Is there a fix for this? Its very frustrating. Please advise. thank you

    Wolf Kenyon

    June 20, 2015

  • Yep, this is one of the known attachment bugs on 4.7.1 which was warned about in the 4.7.1 blog post at http://www.firestormviewer.org/firestorm-major-update-4-7-1-45325/
    LL have a fix for this bug in their BigBird RC viewer. The next release of Firestorm will include this fix.
    See https://jira.secondlife.com/browse/BUG-6925

    Whirly Fizzle

    June 21, 2015

  • “This is not a viewer bug, it is intended behavior.”

    No, it is not ‘intended behavior’ – it is Linden Lab needlessly breaking a function while pretending said break fixes another.

    Dark Wolf

    June 21, 2015

  • Why do you think they are pretending? The people that are affected by the chat bug fixed by the list change say it is fixed…

    Nalates Urriah

    July 3, 2015

  • Hmm, perhaps because loading a member list is not the root cause of group chat failure, it simply exacerbates the problem.

    The root problem(s) stem from not thinking that a group would ever get so large as to cause a slowdown in data transmission while the listings are polled and the relevant data is sent to those group members currently online.

    This ‘fix’ does not address this whatsoever and introduces new issues which have been covered in plenty of places – including the JIRA itself.

    They have had ample time to diagnose the real issues behind group chat failures and implemented several fixes along the way that actually worked, the majority of these being back end changes that bolstered the server’s ability to properly process and transmit the relevant data.

    This ‘fix’ reeks of hitting a roadblock and needing to make it look like they are still working to fix group chat.

    With their track record where it comes to implementing ‘fixes’ that also break other functions, content and legitimate uses … they have an abysmal record of leaving things broken even after finally addressing and implementing a proper fix.

    Now, they may end up actually doing the right thing this time and rolling this ‘fix’ of their’s back once they’ve pushed through whatever roadblock they hit – I am not holding my breath however.

    Lovely, people in truly large groups can now chatter a bit more reliably. The downside is that now you cannot track down group officers, moderators and owners in such large groups to report issues of any kind to them – and that’s just one case wherein you’d need to be able to load the entire list.

    If they had been serious about using this as an actual fix, they would have altered the group loading code on the server end to prioritize the loading of Officers, Moderators and Owners above the loading of general group members. Instead they just barreled forward as they usually do, causing more problems than what they originally had.

    Dark Wolf

    July 4, 2015

  • На самом деле, это просто ограничение обслуживания вместо улучшения мощности сервера. Этот подход напоминает мне о процессе в странах советского блока в старые времена. xaxaxa

    (In fact, it’s just a limitation of the service instead of the improvement of server capacities. This approach reminds me of the method in the Soviet bloc, earlier. lol)

    Findbhair Nikolaevna

    June 22, 2015

  • Let’s face it… The entire Messaging Infrastructure of SL is a joke, compared to any one of dozens of out-world Internet alternatives. Another example of the cobbled-together, nerd-designed, customer be damned LL horror story we are all participating in and all too frequently defend, like some bizarre #Virtual Helsinki Syndrome!

    Rogue

    July 4, 2015

  • agreed !

    b

    July 23, 2015

  • How about all of the constant crashing for NO reason at all, the lack of completed teleports 95% of the time, and other things not working properly? We’re worried about groups not working? How about a stable viewer?

    Lilith Seoung

    July 4, 2015

  • Lilith, if you file a support JIRA issue and include your log files after a crash, support can help you.
    Please see http://wiki.phoenixviewer.com/file_a_jira

    Whirly Fizzle

    July 4, 2015

  • I sometimes wonder, “How much have they compressed the server spaces? How many servers are running, and how many sims are stacked on each one? And has this number dropped drastically in the recent past?”

    Marx Dudek

    July 9, 2015

  • Marx, we all wonder that for a long time. But a fact is important to notice, Mainland travel was never better then nowadays, same for flying and sailing. So Ll is doing some good.

    zzpearlbottom

    July 14, 2015